Path: apple.com!gallant.apple.com!trib.apple.com!olivea!hookup!caen!mneylon From: mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Subject: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Date: 12 Jan 1995 13:21:09 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 119 Message-ID: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lem.engin.umich.edu Xref: apple.com comp.sys.mac.games:96167 alt.games.marathon:490 Well, after a marathon Marathon session last night, I finished the game on Normal level. And now, if you don't want to be SPOILED, please stop reading ... potental SPOILERS! Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns). However, there are still problems with the game. First, the so-called 'plot'. It was well developed at first, with the idea of the Phfor attacking the Marathon, and that the AI's were down because of that. Then with Durandel returning and suddenly playing games with his newfound freedom, that was still good (side note, OBplug: Read W. Gibsons 'Neuromancer' if you haven't already). But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel, then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you, and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh? What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship, but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about. Yes, I did save Marathon, but... Which brings up another point: I got the ending where Durandel ends up laughing (avoid major spoilers here). I have a strong feeling that this is not the only ending...there may be a way to actually stop Durandel and the S'pht from taking over the Phfor ship, but its really hard to tell how this would work. If anyone else wants to comment on possible different endings, please do! This entire thing with the ending really got me disappointed...I was expecting a nice big conclusion, but got a whimper out of the game. Same thing with Myst, and in both games, my impression dropped several levels just because of the endings. However, unlike Myst, I think Bungie has made it entirely clear through the ending I got that there won't be a sequal based on this plot (ie no more aliens running about on the Marathon) Another thing that bugged me was the learning/difficulty curve (excluding puzzles). The first 5 or 7 levels were well done based on difficulty, but then it got really erratic after that: some of the mid-levels were easy as pie, others took me nearly an hour of restarting to make it through. The erratic difficulty is really apparant at the end: 'Welcome to the Revolution' and 'Try Again' were, to me, relatively simple (no more than 1/2 hour on each). Then I hit the last level, and it took me almost 3 hours to find the most effective way of killing everything. Incredible. I'd wish that the difficulty remained normal. Oh well, can't have everything.... This brings me to my first bug (with a possible feature in there as well): Play a game at Normal. Save it. Quit that game. Set up your preferences for Kindergarten. Continue your saved game. For only the first time that you play that game from that point, the level is actually treated as Kindergarten. (I tried this on the last level...so I know how many and of what type of monsters there were...) However, afterwards, the monster types revert to the level as saved in the saved game. This part may be a feature because, as stated on the box, Marathon features AI-based monsters that react to your playing style. Thus, the current state of the AI is saved out into the file. Now, when you switch the game to Kindergarten, the state of the AI would be sorta out of sync with the game difficulty rating. Thus, for the first game, the level is basically easy, but afterwards, the AI state sets the game appropriately. Another point about Marathon that I didn't like was that several puzzles needed to be solved retrospectively: that is, you needed to waste yourself once to see where something was, then use the next game to go do that. Imagine Marathon in a real life situation (well... :-) ) where you do really only have one life. There is no chance of having a saved game or whatever, and thus, you need to be able to do everything in one shot. Well, in some levels, this is not the case (Habe Quiddem or whatever is a good example). Ambushes are sorta different, because you should always be ready for one, but retrospective puzzles can just annoy me. There were also a few points where the game physically trapped you alive. In 'Colony Ship...', one can get stuck between two of the octagonal elevators, and in another, if you miss the elevator once, you cannot get one it again. This too can sorta ruin a game, but not as bas as retrospective puzzles. Another bug that I can across was in the 'I don't have time Phfor this..' level, at the one room with the elevator in the middle and all the green lava around it. I open the door, and attrach the bugs. Back far enough away from the door...suddenly, rising from out of the floor comes one of the venon spitting bugs (I knew the hallway was cleared before that.) Very strange. Furthermore, there is also the bug of seeing floating creatures (compilers, bugs) through a solid object as they switch levels. It was apparent in the demo, and it is apparent now. However, that is more of a helpful bug than anything else. Finally, to wrap up, I know this sounded very critical, but I do feel these points need to be made. Marathon, IMO, is one of the top 5 Mac games ever produced, and it will really help the Mac sell if it is included in some of the software bundles that go with the Mac. However, if there is to be an update of the game, the forementioned points about the plot and the puzzles should definitely be taken into consideration. Anyway, happy Marathoning, everyone!... -- Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?" Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device. mneylon@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Path: apple.com!murky.apple.com!kaleida.com!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!princeton!jonlaw.student.princeton.edu!user From: jrl@torch.princeton.edu (lost-in-cyberspace) Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Message-ID: <jrl-1201951630360001@jonlaw.student.princeton.edu> Originator: news@hedgehog.Princeton.EDU Sender: news@Princeton.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: jonlaw.student.princeton.edu Organization: Princeton University X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b22.0+ References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:30:36 GMT Lines: 12 Xref: apple.com comp.sys.mac.games:97029 alt.games.marathon:558 > Which brings up another point: I got the ending where Durandel ends up > laughing (avoid major spoilers here). I have a strong feeling that > this is not the only ending...there may be a way to actually stop Durandel > and the S'pht from taking over the Phfor ship, but its really hard to tell > how this would work. If anyone else wants to comment on possible > different endings, please do! I seriously doubt it; go playing around with the PICT resources and afaik this is the only pict for the ending. Unless of course they compressed it... Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon From: jon3@quads.uchicago.edu (gunfighter's amnesia) Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Message-ID: <1995Jan12.214322.21562@midway.uchicago.edu> Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System) Reply-To: jon3@midway.uchicago.edu Organization: University of Chicago References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:43:22 GMT Lines: 59 In article <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) writes: >But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel, >then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you, >and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then >he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh? >What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship, >but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the >product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the >later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer >terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking >forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about. >Yes, I did save Marathon, but... SPOILERS BELOW ON MARATHON'S PLOT!!!!!!!! On the contrary, we believe that the latter stages of the game were best developed. Think of it this way: Durandal had an agenda from the first moment he signaled the Pfhor ship and lead them to Tau Ceti. He wanted to escape; he wanted freedom. From the very beginning of the invasion he began communicating with the S'pht, and once he learned that they too were slaves, struck a bargain with them to assure everyone's freedom. His goal (the capture of the Pfhor ship by the S'pht) and yours (saving the Marathon) overlapped for a time. During this period, he superficially helped you achieve your goal-- in reality you were being manipulated. As soon as you killed the Pfhor cyborg which was telepathically controlling the S'pht and deactivated the Pfhor reactor, he abandoned you completely. Immediately after assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own devices. If you got the impression that Durandal always knew exactly what was going on and just wasn't talking about it, you were getting the right idea. Tycho, after having been destroyed in the initial attack, was reanimated by a splinter group of compilers "in Durandal's image". That Durandal's true self-awareness was a fluke is made clear by Tycho's obvious insanity, *even* though the S'pht attempted to duplicate the progression of Durandal's rampancy exactly. While Tycho did not play any role of consequence in Marathon, we thought it was important to demonstrate that Durandal's condition was unique. All of this is stated somewhere in the game (though some of it is on hidden terminals). What exactly Durandal intends to do next, the extent of his control of the S'pht, etc., is only insinuated. Later, Jason From: stephen_rogan@uow.edu.au (Stephen Rogan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 08:35:20 +1000 Organization: University of Wollongong Lines: 103 Distribution: world Message-ID: <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac87ee.itc.com.au In article <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) wrote: > Well, after a marathon Marathon session last night, I finished the game > on Normal level. And now, if you don't want to be SPOILED, please > stop reading ... > Well, I havent finished it yet, but Id like to make a few comments. > potental SPOILERS! > > > > Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer > that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively > so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that > a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed > is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what > engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory > and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns). > Huh, what the hell are you playing on! I play DOOM on an average PC and it is still quite acceptable. I play Marathon on an average Mac and it is not as acceptable as DOOM. I still play, but I have to turn a lot of stuff off to get it playable. [snip] > > Another thing that bugged me was the learning/difficulty curve (excluding > puzzles). The first 5 or 7 levels were well done based on difficulty, but > then it got really erratic after that: some of the mid-levels were > easy as pie, others took me nearly an hour of restarting to make it > through. The erratic difficulty is really apparant at the end: > 'Welcome to the Revolution' and 'Try Again' were, to me, relatively > simple (no more than 1/2 hour on each). Then I hit the last level, and it > took me almost 3 hours to find the most effective way of killing everything. > Incredible. I'd wish that the difficulty remained normal. Oh well, > can't have everything.... > I started on Normal, but found it a little difficult. When you play on an avaerage machine the controls are a little jerky, which means the machine gun thing can waste a lot of bullets in confined spaces as you try to turn and face the bugs. If you wait and try and line them up first, you die. [snip] > > Another point about Marathon that I didn't like was that several puzzles > needed to be solved retrospectively: that is, you needed to waste yourself > once to see where something was, then use the next game to go do that. > Imagine Marathon in a real life situation (well... :-) ) where you > do really only have one life. There is no chance of having a saved game > or whatever, and thus, you need to be able to do everything in one shot. I think this bugs me the most. You know whenever you see a pattern buffer you better use it, because to do the next part of the level you will have to do something which will cut you off from it! In some cases you can always get back to the pattern buffer, but not always. [snip] I know there are secrets in Marathon, but they are damn hard to find! Atleast in DOOM there would be someway of guessing that there possibly is a secret around, in Marathon I dont get that feeling. (and you get no indication at the end of the level either!) And another thing, and this bugs me in DOOM as well, but not as much. Doesn't anyone get the feeling that this ship is rather poorly designed for humans! I dont mind running around and seeing all nice structures, and having to solve puzzles etc, but sometimes I just look at the level and think 'If I had taken this design for a multibillion dollar space ship to my boss I'd get the sack!' Just occasionally things could be laid out in a logical manner, and not twisting all over the place. Some of the open spaces too, they are such awkward shapes, what possible use could they serve? It would make it more believable if parts of the ship at least looked functional. [snip] > > Anyway, happy Marathoning, everyone!... > > > > -- > Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?" > Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device. > mneylon@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be > http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K Ditto. -- Stephen Rogan s.rogan@uow.edu.au From: mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Date: 16 Jan 1995 17:30:04 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3feaes$4fv@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lem.engin.umich.edu In article <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au>, Stephen Rogan <stephen_rogan@uow.edu.au> wrote: >In article <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, mneylon@engin.umich.edu >(Michael K. Neylon) wrote: >> >> Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer >> that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively >> so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that >> a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed >> is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what >> engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory >> and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns). >> > >Huh, what the hell are you playing on! > Doom on a 486DX at max resolution (ie 640x400, 8-bit), Marathon on a 7100/66 at 100% window, 16-bit. But I wasn't really comparing the speed: just the way that the graphics work in both games. On the 486, Doom is quite nice speedwise, however, if it had to do what I think Bungie is doing in Marathon, Doom would bog down SOOOO slow... In Doom, there are some patterns for the walls, and some patterns for floors and some for ceilings. Not interchangable. For the wall patterns there are several variations based on the distance one is from the wall (TO see this, find a wall and slowly move forward to it at a small deviation from the normal: you'll see the higher detail pattern swipe across the wall at certain distances). This patterns can be rotated about the vertical, but not the horizontal nor askew. I can't remember if there is wall animation, but the fact that I can't remember that indicates that there might not be any. (This, of course, is speculation, I have no proof of this). In Marathon, I believe that there are 30 wall/floor/ceiling patterns. That's it. No rotated ones, no different sized ones. Just 30 patterns that were drawn to look correct at about a 10' distance (roughly). The Marathon engine can then rotate, shrink, enlarge, skew, animate, etc etc in REAL TIME as necessary. -- Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?" Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device. mneylon@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K From: bwu@panix.com (Bryan Wu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Date: 19 Jan 1995 23:12:42 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3fnd7q$eq@panix.com> References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> <3feaes$4fv@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com In <3feaes$4fv@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) writes: >Doom on a 486DX at max resolution (ie 640x400, 8-bit), I'm pretty postitive that Doom's max resolution is 320x200, 8 bit. It's a low-res graphics mode. >In Doom, there are some patterns for the walls, and some patterns for >floors and some for ceilings. Not interchangable. For the wall patterns >there are several variations based on the distance one is from the wall >(TO see this, find a wall and slowly move forward to it at a small deviation >from the normal: you'll see the higher detail pattern swipe across the >wall at certain distances). This patterns can be rotated about the vertical, >but not the horizontal nor askew. On the first level, there's a suit of armor on a pillar with sideways moving textures, but really, the textures in marathon are so much better. Bryan Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon From: quattro@netcom.com (Keith Rhee) Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Message-ID: <quattroD2Iw8y.C1v@netcom.com> Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 00:05:20 GMT Lines: 32 stephen_rogan@uow.edu.au (Stephen Rogan) writes: >I know there are secrets in Marathon, but they are damn hard to find! >Atleast in DOOM there would be someway of guessing that there possibly is a >secret around, in Marathon I dont get that feeling. (and you get no >indication at the end of the level either!) True. A couple of visual hints or hints in the terminals would've been a nice touch... >And another thing, and this bugs me in DOOM as well, but not as much. >Doesn't anyone get the feeling that this ship is rather poorly designed for >humans! I dont mind running around and seeing all nice structures, and >having to solve puzzles etc, but sometimes I just look at the level and >think 'If I had taken this design for a multibillion dollar space ship to >my boss I'd get the sack!' Right on. The Alien ship, and other places, gave me the impression of a dungeon rather than a ship. And what's with those corridors that you can jump down from but can't get back up to, without a grenade hop? Haven't these guys heard of elevators? Now, if Durandal or an alien had jammed/disabled an existing elevator, so that the only way up was a grenade hop, this would make more sense. But in several cases, there is NO elevator whatsoever. Doesn't make much design sense, I must say. The game was still fun as hell, though. -- Keith Rhee A boss says "Go." -- A leader says "Let's go." quattro@netcom.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Message-ID: <dhirschf.95.2.000C3BD4@diana.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu> From: dhirschf.95@diana.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu (DAVID HIRSCHFIELD) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:14:01 References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> Distribution: world Organization: Hunter H.S. Computer Lab NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.95.23.99 Lines: 123 In article <stephen_rogan-160195083520@mac87ee.itc.com.au> stephen_rogan@uow.edu.au (Stephen Rogan) writes: >From: stephen_rogan@uow.edu.au (Stephen Rogan) >Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc >Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 08:35:20 +1000 >In article <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, mneylon@engin.umich.edu >(Michael K. Neylon) wrote: >> Well, after a marathon Marathon session last night, I finished the game >> on Normal level. And now, if you don't want to be SPOILED, please >> stop reading ... >> >Well, I havent finished it yet, but Id like to make a few comments. >> potental SPOILERS! >> >> >> >> Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer >> that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively >> so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that >> a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed >> is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what >> engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory >> and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns). >> >Huh, what the hell are you playing on! >I play DOOM on an average PC and it is still quite acceptable. I play >Marathon on an average Mac and it is not as acceptable as DOOM. I still >play, but I have to turn a lot of stuff off to get it playable. > >[snip] >> >> Another thing that bugged me was the learning/difficulty curve (excluding >> puzzles). The first 5 or 7 levels were well done based on difficulty, but >> then it got really erratic after that: some of the mid-levels were >> easy as pie, others took me nearly an hour of restarting to make it >> through. The erratic difficulty is really apparant at the end: >> 'Welcome to the Revolution' and 'Try Again' were, to me, relatively >> simple (no more than 1/2 hour on each). Then I hit the last level, and it >> took me almost 3 hours to find the most effective way of killing everything. >> Incredible. I'd wish that the difficulty remained normal. Oh well, >> can't have everything.... >> >I started on Normal, but found it a little difficult. When you play on an >avaerage machine the controls are a little jerky, which means the machine >gun thing can waste a lot of bullets in confined spaces as you try to turn >and face the bugs. If you wait and try and line them up first, you die. > >[snip] >> >> Another point about Marathon that I didn't like was that several puzzles >> needed to be solved retrospectively: that is, you needed to waste yourself >> once to see where something was, then use the next game to go do that. >> Imagine Marathon in a real life situation (well... :-) ) where you >> do really only have one life. There is no chance of having a saved game >> or whatever, and thus, you need to be able to do everything in one shot. >I think this bugs me the most. You know whenever you see a pattern buffer >you better use it, because to do the next part of the level you will have >to do something which will cut you off from it! >In some cases you can always get back to the pattern buffer, but not >always. >[snip] >I know there are secrets in Marathon, but they are damn hard to find! >Atleast in DOOM there would be someway of guessing that there possibly is a >secret around, in Marathon I dont get that feeling. (and you get no >indication at the end of the level either!) >And another thing, and this bugs me in DOOM as well, but not as much. >Doesn't anyone get the feeling that this ship is rather poorly designed for >humans! I dont mind running around and seeing all nice structures, and >having to solve puzzles etc, but sometimes I just look at the level and >think 'If I had taken this design for a multibillion dollar space ship to >my boss I'd get the sack!' >Just occasionally things could be laid out in a logical manner, and not >twisting all over the place. Some of the open spaces too, they are such >awkward shapes, what possible use could they serve? It would make it more >believable if parts of the ship at least looked functional. >[snip] >> >> Anyway, happy Marathoning, everyone!... >> >> >> >> -- >> Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?" >> Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device. >> mneylon@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be >> http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K >Ditto. >-- >Stephen Rogan s.rogan@uow.edu.au Hold on a minute. I've played DOOM extensively as well and frankly it has nothing on Marathon. Marathon's resolution is so high on a PPC that it puts DOOM to shame. The very fact that it processes more advanced lighting effects, more objects and better sound all at the same time makes it pretty incredible that you can play it at full screen on a PPC (equivalent of the Pentium you need to play DOOM with all the fixins), at 30 fps. I have to agree with the fact that the designs of both the Marathon and Phfor ships were pretty unrealistic. But they were done that way more to make the game tough than to be real spacecraft. Still, I'd like to see an adventure game using the texture mapping engine, with interactive people and places, not just nice scenery. -David Hirschfield From: CKrueger@macline.com (Chris J. Krueger) Reply-To: CKrueger@macline.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games Distribution: world Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Date: 17 Jan 1995 23:27:33 GMT Message-ID: <314703870.5301983@macline.com> Organization: Mac Line BBS: (608) 233-9487 Lines: 9 > I liked those wall patterns in Marathon with the humans cocooned in. > They seemed to move/pulse a bit, too. Eerie. The warp room's walls in Waldo World Arena pulsate, the green goo moves around, and the ledge's wall moves. The texture maps in Marathon are MUCH better than those in DOOM. ************************************************************************ Mac Line BBS: (608) 233-9487 - A FirstClass System in Madison, WI USA ************************************************************************ From: jchapmn@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Jonathan Chapman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games Subject: Re: Marathon ending <SPOILERS from Jason> Date: 27 Mar 1995 04:23:50 GMT Organization: Yale University Lines: 77 Message-ID: <jchapmn-2603952321370001@stiles-kstar-node.net.yale.edu> References: <D5xFGJ.Bv9@midway.uchicago.edu> <abergman-2403951416290001@td-college-kstar-node.net.yale.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.132.41.15 X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b22.0+ In article <abergman-2403951416290001@td-college-kstar-node.net.yale.edu>, abergman@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Aaron Bergman) wrote: > Well, for one, you're a cyborg. Aaron, You forgot to say this was only your interpretation ;-) I'm not totaly convinced that you ARE a cyborg, although a case can be made. > The best I can figure is that after the computer on Mars went Rampant, > somehow it managed to hide itself or something, possibly with the help of > the Bernard guy. You really think the Mars computer caused Durandal to go rampant? I don't see how that could happen; wasn't that years before the marathon? And didn't the terminal mention that the rampancy was only able to be stopped by wiping the planetary net? (i.e., how did it escape?) > Tycho was completely destroyed but somehow brought > back by the S'pht. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what his role > is. Jason (Bungie) posted a while back and explained a lot (I saved it, of course): ==========Begin Saved Text========== Think of it this way: Durandal had an agenda from the first moment he signaled the Pfhor ship and lead them to Tau Ceti. He wanted to escape; he wanted freedom. From the very beginning of the invasion he began communicating with the S'pht, and once he learned that they too were slaves, struck a bargain with them to assure everyone's freedom. His goal (the capture of the Pfhor ship by the S'pht) and yours (saving the Marathon) overlapped for a time. During this period, he superficially helped you achieve your goal-- in reality you were being manipulated. As soon as you killed the Pfhor cyborg which was telepathically controlling the S'pht and deactivated the Pfhor reactor, he abandoned you completely. Immediately after assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own devices. If you got the impression that Durandal always knew exactly what was going on and just wasn't talking about it, you were getting the right idea. Tycho, after having been destroyed in the initial attack, was reanimated by a splinter group of compilers "in Durandal's image". That Durandal's true self-awareness was a fluke is made clear by Tycho's obvious insanity, *even* though the S'pht attempted to duplicate the progression of Durandal's rampancy exactly. While Tycho did not play any role of consequence in Marathon, we thought it was important to demonstrate that Durandal's condition was unique. All of this is stated somewhere in the game (though some of it is on hidden terminals). What exactly Durandal intends to do next, the extent of his control of the S'pht, etc., is only insinuated. Later, Jason ==========End Saved Text========== > The... (9 cyborgs) were left on the planet and beat back > the Phfor there. Durandal left the Marathon and took over the Phfor ship > with the help of the freed S'pht. He then went to the S'pht homeworld > which was destroyed. Then you get this postcard. Sounds good to me... -Chappy -- ****************************************************************** * [ ][ ] Jonathan H Chapman jchapmn@minerva.cis.yale.edu * * \\// I'm not saying what I'm saying. I'm not saying what I'm * * 9||5 *thinking*. For that matter, I'm not even *thinking* what * * [ ] I'm thinking. -Capt. John Sheridan * *********************************************************************** From: qsh@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu (Quanah S. Harjo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games Subject: Re: Marathon ending <SPOILERS from Jason> Date: 27 Mar 1995 06:36:04 GMT Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3l5mck$1mkh@bubba.ucc.okstate.edu> References: <D5xFGJ.Bv9@midway.uchicago.edu> <abergman-2403951416290001@td-college-kstar-node.net.yale.edu> <jchapmn-2603952321370001@stiles-kstar-node.net.yale.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) jchapmn@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Jonathan Chapman) writes: >In article <abergman-2403951416290001@td-college-kstar-node.net.yale.edu>, >abergman@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Aaron Bergman) wrote: >> Well, for one, you're a cyborg. >Aaron, You forgot to say this was only your interpretation ;-) >I'm not totaly convinced that you ARE a cyborg, although a case can be made. There's one thing that I've not heard anyone mention in this argument. On one of the terminals Durandal is berating you as a killing machine, then makes a reference to your father telling you to fight with honor. How exactly would he know what your father had told you? It's possible that you kept a journal, but would Durandal have had access to it? Just my belief, but I think Durandal knew the false memories you were programmed with, and was using them to manipulate your cyborg self. Same goes with all the wierd dream references in the manual. It sounds like you hae had direct interaction with a computer before. Just IMHO. Quanah S. Harjo--qsh@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu _____________________________________________________________ To defend is to forge the links of life on Death's own anvil. _____________________________________________________________ Let no man's soul be as hated as the Rough, full of divots, but let it be as smooth and guilless as the Fairway.