Path: apple.com!gallant.apple.com!trib.apple.com!olivea!hookup!caen!mneylon From: mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon Subject: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Date: 12 Jan 1995 13:21:09 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 119 Message-ID: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lem.engin.umich.edu Xref: apple.com comp.sys.mac.games:96167 alt.games.marathon:490 Well, after a marathon Marathon session last night, I finished the game on Normal level. And now, if you don't want to be SPOILED, please stop reading ... potental SPOILERS! Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns). However, there are still problems with the game. First, the so-called 'plot'. It was well developed at first, with the idea of the Phfor attacking the Marathon, and that the AI's were down because of that. Then with Durandel returning and suddenly playing games with his newfound freedom, that was still good (side note, OBplug: Read W. Gibsons 'Neuromancer' if you haven't already). But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel, then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you, and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh? What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship, but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about. Yes, I did save Marathon, but... Which brings up another point: I got the ending where Durandel ends up laughing (avoid major spoilers here). I have a strong feeling that this is not the only ending...there may be a way to actually stop Durandel and the S'pht from taking over the Phfor ship, but its really hard to tell how this would work. If anyone else wants to comment on possible different endings, please do! This entire thing with the ending really got me disappointed...I was expecting a nice big conclusion, but got a whimper out of the game. Same thing with Myst, and in both games, my impression dropped several levels just because of the endings. However, unlike Myst, I think Bungie has made it entirely clear through the ending I got that there won't be a sequal based on this plot (ie no more aliens running about on the Marathon) Another thing that bugged me was the learning/difficulty curve (excluding puzzles). The first 5 or 7 levels were well done based on difficulty, but then it got really erratic after that: some of the mid-levels were easy as pie, others took me nearly an hour of restarting to make it through. The erratic difficulty is really apparant at the end: 'Welcome to the Revolution' and 'Try Again' were, to me, relatively simple (no more than 1/2 hour on each). Then I hit the last level, and it took me almost 3 hours to find the most effective way of killing everything. Incredible. I'd wish that the difficulty remained normal. Oh well, can't have everything.... This brings me to my first bug (with a possible feature in there as well): Play a game at Normal. Save it. Quit that game. Set up your preferences for Kindergarten. Continue your saved game. For only the first time that you play that game from that point, the level is actually treated as Kindergarten. (I tried this on the last level...so I know how many and of what type of monsters there were...) However, afterwards, the monster types revert to the level as saved in the saved game. This part may be a feature because, as stated on the box, Marathon features AI-based monsters that react to your playing style. Thus, the current state of the AI is saved out into the file. Now, when you switch the game to Kindergarten, the state of the AI would be sorta out of sync with the game difficulty rating. Thus, for the first game, the level is basically easy, but afterwards, the AI state sets the game appropriately. Another point about Marathon that I didn't like was that several puzzles needed to be solved retrospectively: that is, you needed to waste yourself once to see where something was, then use the next game to go do that. Imagine Marathon in a real life situation (well... :-) ) where you do really only have one life. There is no chance of having a saved game or whatever, and thus, you need to be able to do everything in one shot. Well, in some levels, this is not the case (Habe Quiddem or whatever is a good example). Ambushes are sorta different, because you should always be ready for one, but retrospective puzzles can just annoy me. There were also a few points where the game physically trapped you alive. In 'Colony Ship...', one can get stuck between two of the octagonal elevators, and in another, if you miss the elevator once, you cannot get one it again. This too can sorta ruin a game, but not as bas as retrospective puzzles. Another bug that I can across was in the 'I don't have time Phfor this..' level, at the one room with the elevator in the middle and all the green lava around it. I open the door, and attrach the bugs. Back far enough away from the door...suddenly, rising from out of the floor comes one of the venon spitting bugs (I knew the hallway was cleared before that.) Very strange. Furthermore, there is also the bug of seeing floating creatures (compilers, bugs) through a solid object as they switch levels. It was apparent in the demo, and it is apparent now. However, that is more of a helpful bug than anything else. Finally, to wrap up, I know this sounded very critical, but I do feel these points need to be made. Marathon, IMO, is one of the top 5 Mac games ever produced, and it will really help the Mac sell if it is included in some of the software bundles that go with the Mac. However, if there is to be an update of the game, the forementioned points about the plot and the puzzles should definitely be taken into consideration. Anyway, happy Marathoning, everyone!... -- Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?" Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device. mneylon@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,alt.games.marathon From: jon3@quads.uchicago.edu (gunfighter's amnesia) Subject: Re: Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc Message-ID: <1995Jan12.214322.21562@midway.uchicago.edu> Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System) Reply-To: jon3@midway.uchicago.edu Organization: University of Chicago References: <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:43:22 GMT Lines: 59 In article <3f3ac5$6fq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> mneylon@engin.umich.edu (Michael K. Neylon) writes: >But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel, >then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you, >and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then >he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh? >What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship, >but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the >product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the >later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer >terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking >forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about. >Yes, I did save Marathon, but... SPOILERS BELOW ON MARATHON'S PLOT!!!!!!!! On the contrary, we believe that the latter stages of the game were best developed. Think of it this way: Durandal had an agenda from the first moment he signaled the Pfhor ship and lead them to Tau Ceti. He wanted to escape; he wanted freedom. From the very beginning of the invasion he began communicating with the S'pht, and once he learned that they too were slaves, struck a bargain with them to assure everyone's freedom. His goal (the capture of the Pfhor ship by the S'pht) and yours (saving the Marathon) overlapped for a time. During this period, he superficially helped you achieve your goal-- in reality you were being manipulated. As soon as you killed the Pfhor cyborg which was telepathically controlling the S'pht and deactivated the Pfhor reactor, he abandoned you completely. Immediately after assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own devices. If you got the impression that Durandal always knew exactly what was going on and just wasn't talking about it, you were getting the right idea. Tycho, after having been destroyed in the initial attack, was reanimated by a splinter group of compilers "in Durandal's image". That Durandal's true self-awareness was a fluke is made clear by Tycho's obvious insanity, *even* though the S'pht attempted to duplicate the progression of Durandal's rampancy exactly. While Tycho did not play any role of consequence in Marathon, we thought it was important to demonstrate that Durandal's condition was unique. All of this is stated somewhere in the game (though some of it is on hidden terminals). What exactly Durandal intends to do next, the extent of his control of the S'pht, etc., is only insinuated. Later, Jason |